67 replies to this topic

[LucidCharting]

The server was created from parts that had already existed in the world. The energy used to power the server is supplied by the local electricity company. The server is connected to the internet by an internet service provider, who also built their business from materials that pre-existed on this earth. This planet is the server, the universe is the service provider, the sun is the energy, we are the code.

A painter re-arranges materials to create an artwork.
A sculptor starts with a block of stone and chips away at it meticulously.
A steel worker moulds liquid metal into shape for use in cars, homes, planes, etc...

What pre-existing material did god use to create this universe?

Something can not come from nothing. There is no grand design and there is no designer. It just is.

The bible is only a couple thousand years old. Humans have been around much longer. Where was this Christian god during the times of ancient Egypt?
It's all simply mythology and great storytelling.

A writer uses ideas and imagination to tell a convincing story. It's up to the listener to believe it.

Edited by LucidCharting, 17 July 2011 - 02:56 AM.

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[islam]

if u think humans had the ultimate power to make anything and control everything ....then
      we r all gods.....
else
      we r part of this wonderful and great world.......just has some control to be examed

endif

bible is just one message from the God to the humans....there were alot of previuose books.....and there is the quran which is the ultimate book that ends all arguments about that.......

moses was the messenger in pharoh's age and jusef before ....jekob ......ibrams.....

it's not just few thousand years......it's from far far away......

i want to preview part of the quran which talks about the human called surat al-insan means the human

Quote

Al-Insan
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Hath there come upon man (ever) any period of time in which he was a thing unremembered? (1) Lo! We create man from a drop of thickened fluid to test him; so We make him hearing, knowing. (2) Lo! We have shown him the way, whether he be grateful or disbelieving. (3) Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers manacles and carcans and a raging fire. (4) Lo! the righteous shall drink of a cup whereof the mixture is of water of Kafur, (5) A spring wherefrom the slaves of Allah drink, making it gush forth abundantly, (6) (Because) they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide-spreading, (7) And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him, (8) (Saying): We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you; (9) Lo! we fear from our Lord a day of frowning and of fate. (10) Therefor Allah hath warded off from them the evil of that day, and hath made them find brightness and joy; (11) And hath awarded them for all that they endured, a Garden and silk attire; (12) Reclining therein upon couches, they will find there neither (heat of) a sun nor bitter cold. (13) The shade thereof is close upon them and the clustered fruits thereof bow down. (14) Goblets of silver are brought round for them, and beakers (as) of glass (15) (Bright as) glass but (made) of silver, which they (themselves) have measured to the measure (of their deeds). (16) There are they watered with a cup whereof the mixture is of Zanjabil, (17) The water of a spring therein, named Salsabil. (18) There, serve them youths of ever lasting youths, whom, when thou seest, thou wouldst take for scattered pearls. (19) When thou seest, thou wilt see there bliss and high estate. (20) Their raiment will be fine green silk and gold embroidery. Bracelets of silver will they wear. Their Lord will slake their thirst with a pure drink. (21) (And it will be said unto them): Lo! this is a reward for you. Your endeavour (upon earth) hath found acceptance. (22) Lo! We, even We, have revealed unto thee the Qur'an, a revelation; (23) So submit patiently to thy Lord's command, and obey not of them any guilty one or disbeliever. (24) Remember the name of thy Lord at morn and evening. (25) And worship Him (a portion) of the night. And glorify Him through the livelong night. (26) Lo! these love fleeting life, and put behind them (the remembrance of) a grievous day. (27) We, even We, created them, and strengthened their frame. And when We will, We can replace them, bringing others like them in their stead. (28) Lo! this is an Admonishment, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord. (29) Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise. (30) He maketh whom He will to enter His mercy, and for evil-doers hath prepared a painful doom. (31)

Enjoy  

[Sharad D]

I wanted to reply to this post, but felt posting in my blog would be better! So here is my blog post. Please reply here instead of comments there,so that the discussion can continue here itself

http://sharu.vlexofr...is-there-a-god/

[leke]

Hey people, don't let these religious types brainwash you. Here, let me brain wash you with my brand of atheist brainwash. It washes in all the hard to reach places.

The reason there is still relative piece in Merica, is because most people are moderates (they are very wishy washy about their religion), or they are  atheists. The more religious you become, the most like these guys you become...
http://onemansblog.c...-facebook-page/

If you aren't then you are a moderate.

I've been also thinking about why people seem to embrace so many contradicting religions. Here is my take when replying to a question about god on a UFO forum...

What is this thing called faith? I've been thinking about that lately and think the whole religion/belief thing could be a coping strategy inside people. Whatever you believe in, it helps you cope with the stress and seemingly pointless nature of reality around you. It gives the world a meaning and that we are not suffering (in whatever personal way that might be) for no reason.

I think this extends to all kinds of belief systems -- even something like a belief in Spaceships flying around our countries and that someday they will make contact and our lives will change as a result. Even if that was to happen, I think you would find people needing to then believe in something else as I think it's hard for anyone to be completely satisfied with their existence.

...

So, back to the vlexo topic. I myself believe in UFOs (Alien spaceships flying around Earth). I know that nobody can disprove me, but at the same time I can't prove it with hard evidence. I also know why I believe in UFOs (see above) and that it's probably not true at all. I know that it would make my escape world more appealing if I got all my friends and even strangers involved and perhaps changed some laws forcing people to do stuff, but I have a pretty reasonable grasp on reality

So, try and just cope with living, without something that could effect other people and their lives. Don't look for answers in a holy book. Don't look for answers in the bottom of a bottle. Just try and make sense of it in your own head and look forward to the day when it will all be over

Listen to the crazies reply to this and think if you want verse quoting from a book as part of your daily routine.

[islam]

Read and try to figure out the Logic and Illogics....

Ask yourself are these words of humans or someone Greater.....someone knows ....someone was and is in every where in every time....

It's up to you to believe or disbelieve....

it's your fate and your decission


Believers Surat in Quran :

Quote

Successful indeed are the believers (1) Who are humble in their prayers, (2) And who shun vain conversation, (3) And who are payers of the poor-due; (4) And who guard their modesty - (5) Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy, (6) But whoso craveth beyond that, such are transgressors - (7) And who are keepers of their pledge and their covenant, (8) And who pay heed to their prayers. (9) These are the heirs (10) Who will inherit paradise. There they will abide. (11) Verily We created man from a product of wet earth; (12) Then placed him as a drop (of seed) in a safe lodging; (13) Then fashioned We the drop a clot, then fashioned We the clot a little lump, then fashioned We the little lump bones, then clothed the bones with flesh, and then produced it as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators! (14) Then lo! after that ye surely die. (15) Then lo! on the Day of Resurrection ye are raised (again). (16) And We have created above you seven paths, and We are never unmindful of creation. (17) And we send down from the sky water in measure, and We give it settle in the earth, and lo! We are Able to withdraw it. (18) Then We produce for you therewith gardens of date-palms and grapes, wherein is much fruit for you and whereof ye eat; (19) And a tree that springeth forth from Mount Sinai that groweth oil and relish for the eaters. (20) And lo! in the cattle there is verily a lesson for you. We give you to drink of that which is in their bellies, and many uses have ye in them, and of them do ye eat; (21) And on them and on the ship ye are carried. (22) And We verily sent Noah unto his folk, and he said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other god save Him. Will ye not ward off (evil)? (23) But the chieftains of his folk, who disbelieved, said: This is only a mortal like you who would make himself superior to you. Had Allah willed, He surely could have sent down angels. We heard not of this in the case of our fathers of old. (24) He is only a man in whom is a madness, so watch him for a while. (25) He said: My Lord! Help me because they deny me. (26) Then We inspired in him, saying: Make the ship under Our eyes and Our inspiration. Then, when Our command cometh and the oven gusheth water, introduce therein of every (kind) two spouses, and thy household save him thereof against whom the Word hath already gone forth. And plead not with Me on behalf of those who have done wrong. Lo! they will be drowned. (27) And when thou art on board the ship, thou and whoso is with thee, then say: Praise be to Allah Who hath saved us from the wrongdoing folk! (28) And say: My Lord! Cause me to land at a blessed landing-place, for Thou art best of all who bring to land. (29) Lo! herein verily are portents, for lo! We are ever putting (mankind) to the test. (30) Then, after them, We brought forth another generation; (31) And we sent among them a messenger of their own, saying: Serve Allah, Ye have no other god save Him. Will ye not ward off (evil)? (32) And the chieftains of his folk, who disbelieved and denied the meeting of the Hereafter, and whom We had made soft in the life of the world, said: This is only a mortal like you, who eateth of that whereof ye eat and drinketh of that ye drink. (33) If ye were to obey a mortal like yourselves, then, lo! ye surely would be losers. (34) Doth he promise you that you, when ye are dead and have become dust and bones, will (again) be brought forth? (35) Begone, begone, with that which ye are promised! (36) There is naught but our life of the world; we die and we live, and we shall not be raised (again). (37) He is only a man who hath invented a lie about Allah. We are not going to put faith in him. (38) He said: My Lord! Help me because they deny me. (39) He said: In a little while they surely will become repentant. (40) So the (Awful) Cry overtook them rightfully, and We made them like as wreckage (that a torrent hurleth). A far removal for wrongdoing folk! (41) Then after them We brought forth other generations. (42) No nation can outstrip its term, nor yet postpone it. (43) Then We sent our messengers one after another. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not! (44) Then We sent Moses and his brother Aaron with Our tokens and a clear warrant (45) Unto Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they scorned (them) and they were despotic folk. (46) And they said: Shall we put faith in two mortals like ourselves, and whose folk are servile unto us? (47) So they denied them, and became of those who were destroyed. (48) And We verily gave Moses the Scripture, that haply they might go aright. (49) And We made the son of Mary and his mother a portent, and We gave them refuge on a height, a place of flocks and watersprings. (50) O ye messengers! Eat of the good things, and do right. Lo! I am Aware of what ye do. (51) And lo! this your religion is one religion and I am your Lord, so keep your duty unto Me. (52) But they (mankind) have broken their religion among them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets. (53) So leave them in their error till a time. (54) Think they that in the wealth and sons wherewith We provide them (55) We hasten unto them with good things? Nay, but they perceive not. (56) Lo! those who go in awe for fear of their Lord. (57) And those who believe in the revelations of their Lord, (58) And those who ascribe not partners unto their Lord, (59) And those who give that which they give with hearts afraid because they are about to return unto their Lord, (60) These race for the good things, and they shall win them in the race. (61) And we task not any soul beyond its scope, and with Us is a Record which speaketh the truth, and they will not be wronged. (62) Nay, but their hearts are in ignorance of this (Qur'an), and they have other works, besides, which they are doing; (63) Till when We grasp their luxurious ones with the punishment, behold! they supplicate. (64) Supplicate not this day! Assuredly ye will not be helped by Us. (65) My revelations were recited unto you, but ye used to turn back on your heels, (66) In scorn thereof. Nightly did ye rave together. (67) Have they not pondered the Word, or hath that come unto them which came not unto their fathers of old? (68) Or know they not their messenger, and so reject him? (69) Or say they: There is a madness in him? Nay, but he bringeth them the Truth; and most of them are haters of the Truth. (70) And if the Truth had followed their desires, verily the heavens and the earth and whosoever is therein had been corrupted. Nay, We have brought them their Reminder, but from their Reminder they now turn away. (71) Or dost thou ask of them (O Muhammad) any tribute? But the bounty of thy Lord is better, for He is Best of all who make provision. (72) And lo! thou summonest them indeed unto a right path. (73) And lo! those who believe not in the Hereafter are indeed astray from the path. (74) Though We had mercy on them and relieved them of the harm afflicting them, they still would wander blindly on in their contumacy. (75) Already have We grasped them with punishment, but they humble not themselves unto their Lord, nor do they pray, (76) Until, when We open for them the gate of extreme punishment, behold! they are aghast thereat. (77) He it is Who hath created for you ears and eyes and hearts. Small thanks give ye! (78) And He it is Who hath sown you broadcast in the earth, and unto Him ye will be gathered. (79) And He it is Who giveth life and causeth death, and His is the difference of night and day. Have ye then no sense? (80) Nay, but they say the like of that which said the men of old; (81) They say: When we are dead and have become (mere) dust and bones, shall we then, forsooth, be raised again? (82) We were already promised this, we and our forefathers. Lo! this is naught but fables of the men of old. (83) Say: Unto Whom (belongeth) the earth and whosoever is therein, if ye have knowledge? (84) They will say: Unto Allah. Say: Will ye not then remember? (85) Say: Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Tremendous Throne? (86) They will say: Unto Allah (all that belongeth). Say: Will ye not then keep duty (unto Him)? (87) Say: In Whose hand is the dominion over all things and He protecteth, while against Him there is no protection, if ye have knowledge? (88) They will say: Unto Allah (all that belongeth). Say: How then are ye bewitched? (89) Nay, but We have brought them the Truth, and lo! they are liars. (90) Allah hath not chosen any son, nor is there any God along with Him; else would each God have assuredly championed that which he created, and some of them would assuredly have overcome others. Glorified be Allah above all that they allege. (91) Knower of the Invisible and the Visible! and Exalted be He over all that they ascribe as partners (unto Him)! (92) Say: My Lord! If Thou shouldst show me that which they are promised. (93) My Lord! then set me not among the wrongdoing folk. (94) And verily We are Able to show thee that which We have promised them. (95) Repel evil with that which is better. We are best aware of that which they allege. (96) And say: My Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from suggestions of the evil ones, (97) And I seek refuge in Thee, my Lord, lest they be present with me, (98) Until, when death cometh unto one of them, he saith: My Lord! Send me back, (99) That I may do right in that which I have left behind! But nay! It is but a word that he speaketh; and behind them is a barrier until the day when they are raised. (100) And when the trumpet is blown there will be no kinship among them that day, nor will they ask of one another. (101) Then those whose scales are heavy, they are the successful. (102) And those whose scales are light are those who lose their souls, in hell abiding. (103) The fire burneth their faces, and they are glum therein. (104) (It will be said): Were not My revelations recited unto you, and then ye used to deny them? (105) They will say: Our Lord! Our evil fortune conquered us, and we were erring folk. (106) Our Lord! Oh, bring us forth from hence! If we return (to evil) then indeed we shall be wrong-doers. (107) He saith: Begone therein, and speak not unto Me. (108) Lo! there was a party of My slaves who said: Our Lord! We believe, therefor forgive us and have mercy on us for Thou art Best of all who show mercy; (109) But ye chose them for a laughing-stock until they caused you to forget remembrance of Me, while ye laughed at them. (110) Lo! I have rewarded them this day forasmuch as they were steadfast and they verily are the triumphant. (111) He will say: How long tarried ye in the earth, counting by years? (112) They will say: We tarried but a day or part of a day. Ask of those who keep count! (113) He will say: Ye tarried but a little if ye only knew. (114) Deemed ye then that We had created you for naught, and that ye would not be returned unto Us? (115) Now Allah be Exalted, the True King! There is no God save Him, the Lord of the Throne of Grace. (116) He who crieth unto any other god along with Allah hath no proof thereof. His reckoning is only with his Lord. Lo! disbelievers will not be successful. (117) And (O Muhammad) say: My Lord! Forgive and have mercy, for Thou art Best of all who show mercy. (118)

Edited by islam, 17 August 2011 - 07:28 AM.

[Sharad D]

Don't miss even a single word....It's Too good

An atheist professor of philosophy speaks to his class on the problem science has with God, The Almighty. He asks one of his new students to stand and.....

Prof: So you believe in God?
Student: Absolutely, sir.

Prof: Is God good?
Student: Sure.

Prof: Is God all-powerful?
Student: Yes..

Prof: My brother died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him.. Most of us would attempt to help others who are ill. But God didn't. How is this God good then? Hmm?
(Student is silent.)


Prof: You can't answer, can you? Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Is Satan good?
Student : No.

Prof: Where does Satan come from?
Student: From....God. ..

Prof: That's right. Tell me son, is there evil in this world?
Student: Yes.

Prof: Evil is everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything. Correct?
Student: Yes.

Prof: So who created evil?
(Student does not answer.)

Prof: Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things exist in the world, don't they?
Student: Yes, sir.

Prof: So, who created them?
(Student has no answer.)

Prof: Science says you have 5 senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Tell me, son...Have you ever seen God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Tell us if you have ever heard your God?
Student: No, sir.

Prof: Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God, smelt your God? Have you ever had any sensory perception of God for that matter?
Student: No, sir. I'm afraid I haven't.

Prof: Yet you still believe in Him?
Student: Yes.

Prof: According to empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your GOD doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?
Student: Nothing. I only have my faith.
Prof: Yes. Faith. And that is the problem science has.

Student: Professor, is there such a thing as heat?
Prof: Yes.

Student: And is there such a thing as cold?
Prof: Yes.

Student: No sir. There isn't.
(The lecture theatre becomes very quiet with this turn ofevents.)

Student: Sir, you can have lots of heat, even more heat, superheat, mega heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat.. But we don't have anything called cold. We can hit 458 degrees below zero which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold. Cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat ... We cannot measure cold. Heat is energy Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it.
(There is pin-drop silence in the lecture theatre.)

Student: What about darkness, Professor? Is there such a thing as darkness?
Prof: Yes. What is night if there isn't darkness?

Student: You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light....But if you have no light constantly, you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? In reality, darkness isn't. If it were you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?
Prof: So what is the point you are making, young man?

Student: Sir, my point is your philosophical premise is flawed.

Prof: Flawed? Can you explain how?

Student: Sir, you are working on the premise of duality. You argue there is life and then there is death, a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought... It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life: just the absence of it. Now tell me, Professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?
Prof: If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, yes, of course, I do.

Student:Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?
(The Professor shakes his head with a smile, beginning to realize where the argument is going.)

Student: Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you not a scientist but a preacher?
(The class is in uproar..)

Student: Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the Professor's brain?
(The class breaks out into laughter.)

Student: Is there anyone here who has ever heard the Professor's brain, felt it, touched or smelt it? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, sir. With all due respect, sir, how do we then trust your lectures, sir?
(The room is silent. The professor stares at the student,his face unfathomable. )

Prof: I guess you'll have to take them on faith, son.

Student: That is it sir... The link between man & god is FAITH.

That is all that keeps things moving & alive.

[islam]

WOW

That was very awesom

I like it too much

I can not add any more word on that.....

[C-Dice]

Before speaking, let me apologize for digging up the old and delicate subject.

First, my stance is brought form scientific skepticism, so I don't insist whether the God or some supernatural will/power exist or not.

I only say about that if something have possibilities to be explained without the God or other being, we have a choice that we explain them without the God.  This doesn't deny the existence of the God, I only insist the God is not necessary to explain about most  (or all of the) being.

So I think that the most important point of religious devotion is that there exist many people who need devotion to live in a harsh environment, the Earth itself.

To keep oneself having reservations about everything is intelligent and good perspective, but I can't say that everyone have room to breathe that accepts such a perspective.  Many people become insane or close their ears to keep themselves' sanity.  I think if everyone have such a spiritual power, there's no wars or rich-poor gaps.  Even more there's no religious conflict.

The existence of this topic is one of a sign of my point of view described above.

I would like to hear your opinion.

Thank you.